The good, the bad and the ugly, revisited
I have been reading about these cursed immunizations and their possible link to Autism since a couple of weeks ago when I posted about the 2 new bills that are currently circulating around the floor of the NYS Assembly. I tell you, it is a formidable process. I’ve tried to be neutral in my approach, but my history puts me on the side of those who suspect a link between thimerasol (mercury based preservative which used to be used in the MMR vaccine and is still used today in the flu shot) and Autism. Or, possibly the massive insult that multiple vaccinations administered at one time provides to a child’s developing immune system.
Recently a little girl and her family were awarded a settlement that would suggest this link exists. Back in February, David Kirby at Huffington Post had this to suggest:
And, if a significant minority of autism cases can be linked to Mt disease and vaccines, shouldn’t these products one day carry an FDA Black Box warning label, and shouldn’t children with Mt disorders be exempt from mandatory immunization?
Now, the CDC and the AAP have their own recommendations and have studies which suggest that there is no link between the 2. My question is, who is funding those studies? Some of them have been done right here at the U of R. If it is big Pharma, then I think we need to look a little closer.
Yet, here are other studies which support the likelihood of a link. Are my studies bigger than your studies? What about the individual case studies? Are the presentations similar?
If there is a test that can be done to detect Mitochondrial disorder before we immunize, then wouldn’t it make sense to test babies much like we do PKU screening of newborns?
Immunizations are not going to have the same effect on all people. That’s a fact.
I know that many of you feel that all should be vaccinated for the greater good. Maybe so.
But, knowing how much we don’t know, I think this still comes down to individual choice. That was my original point when I put up the first post on immunizations. That remains my point.
Although speaking about co-sleeping, I found this quote to be applicable to our situation here. From Linda Smith:
Life is a constant balance of risk vs benefit-everyone of us is trying to make the best “judgement call”. Statistics, biology, history, anthropology, research and common sense weigh in on the side of breastfeeding, co-sleeping, auto travel with good car-seats, and no pacifiers. Maybe immunizations too. Our job is to present the facts as far as possible.
Respectful Insolence on Scienceblogs regularly posts about autism and vaccines. Lots of debunkings of much of the nonsense floating around.
Co-sleeping, no immunizations, child birth at home. At a certain point, you have to realize that the more you do things on your own, the more likely an “individual choice” will end up harming a baby or child. And this babv or child has no choice. It is the parents RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the child’s risk to harm is reduced. I am sure Jehovah’s witnesses who doesn’t allow a blood transfusion or the parent who believes in the power of prayer and refuses medicine such as antibiotics also believes they made an informed and individual decision.
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/faith_values/stories/2008/05/30/sickpray.ART_ART_05-30-08_B6_NAA9PCJ.html?sid=101
(google the google news and “faith healing debate” if the link above does not work)
And you know what? There is going to be far fewer of the next generation of people who think they can make intelligent, independent decisions because they know better than medical science because their kids never made it out of childhood. Leave it person who spent 10 years in medical school, reads the trend reports, attends the seminars, know the history of medicine and talks with other doctors on a daily basis and don’t pretend you know better. My words will appear harsh, but it is out of love for children and the people who care for them.
Bigboy - this is an excellent use of a strawman argument. Linking religious belief to support the medical profession. .Nicely done but here is where the point is missed
Ladkiddo, as I read these posts, is not metaphorically “disregarding medical doctors” far from it. The underlying point is the positions of the AMA with regards to how medicine in the US is implemented,
Also - I don’t see where Ladkiddo says vaccines CAUSE autism but I do see a request for more studies, more tests.
I also see Ladkiddo railing against Big Pharma.
So here are some observations from someone who is not in the medical profession but has their own observations.
In the US it seems everything can be solved metaphorically by “a pill”. If the pill causes side effects - there is another pill to solve that and another one to solve the side effect after that. Talk to someone who has had to “dial in” the medical dosage. Logically doesn’t it make sense to actually address the problem?
So Ladkiddo questions the AMA. So are they still against Chiropractors or did they get over that. point being -
In the end large bureaucratic organizations - any organization - can become myopic, focusing on it’s own self interest. This is avoided by infusion of new ideas, tested, validated new ideas.
Yeah, really, BigBoy, where did faith healing come into this?
Off topic.
I put faith based healing in because it exposes nuts that would let a kid die because they refuse a blood transfusion or antibiotics and are the same ones who think they know better than doctors.
Regarding my strawman argument from STLO7, I am actually concerned that someone who would increasingly take risks with co-sleeping, birth at home and avoid vaccines is ultimately going to harm a child. The more risks, the more likely something bad comes this way.
Remember why people use to die in past centuries during child birth? Its because they were being born at home and not under a doctors care. Here’s some reasons in wikipedia:
At the beginning of the 1900s, maternal death rates were around 1 in 100 for live births. The number today in the United States is 13 in 100,000, a decline by orders of magnitude.
The decline in maternal deaths has been due largely to improved asepsis, use of caesarean section, fluid management and blood transfusion, and better prenatal care.
Generally speaking, the midwife will not be able to perform these functions.
Remember the kids in the 50’s who got polio and lived in Iron lungs? Its because they didn’t have a vaccine. And now that its available, its been eradicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases
And no matter what, if someone falls asleep on a child and suffocates them by “co-sleeping”, the comfort you bring is not worth the risk.
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/PRHTML99/99175.html
I wish you the best but thinking you know better than clinical trials and thousands of years of collective experience is just wrong. Challenge the thoughts - sure. But making a habit of risky behavior won’t help anyone.
We are one of the few cultures that does not routinely sleep with their children. The cultures with the lowest rate of SIDs are the countries who co-bed.
Home births are monitored by trained nurse-midwives. These aren’t little old ladies with dirty fingernails, they are trained professionals. This country has one of the highest rates of infant mortality in the world and I can assure you, it’s not because babies are being born at home.Do you have any idea of the rate of post-partum infections after a hospital birth, especially in c-sections? Do you have any idea of the joy a woman experiences when she has a natural delivery and how that aids in all the post-partum adjustments because of the natural flow of hormones to mom and baby?
I’m not against immunizations, I don’t hate children, and sensationalizing the issue accomplishes nothing.
I feel bad that you feel you have to attack me for questioning the status quo.
I’m not saying that I know anything any more than anyone else. I am just saying-look into things first. get the education that you need to make an informed choice for what is right for you, stop following blindy, and stop telling other people what to do.
And above all, stop with the judgement.
Risky behavior? please!
.
Don’t listen to the rude comments. You are on the right track. I am currently righting about about vaccinations. I am just a mom who wants to share the “truth”. You couldn’t pay me all the money in the world to have my children vaccinated. I’ve been researching the subject for years and I have never found anything that proves that vaccines are either safe or effective.
I believe in vaccinations for the greater good. However, I wonder if we could experiment with doing the MMR vaccine as 3 separate ones again though to see if there may be a link with the way they’ve combined those. Most of the anecdotal evidence linking this shot to autism has been since it was combined into one.
Because most of the general population does not understand correlation is not causation in the true scientific sense, it is best to be very, very specific with what you mean when you say “my history puts me on the side of those who suspect a link between thimerasol (mercury based preservative which used to be used in the MMR vaccine and is still used today in the flu shot) and Autism.”
Because autism is a developmental disorder there are myriad brain functions and structures involved that are involved in its etiology. Researchers have so far found a few genes that point to autism. It also runs in families and is much more prevalent in boys in those families. These people never had the vaccines in many cases because they were born before there was a vaccination program on a wide scale. In the past these folks were diagnosed under the umbrella category of “mental retardation” even though they weren’t technically mentally retarded.
My concern is that statements and lawsuits like these, which only represent a tiny, tiny fraction of the population, will cause many more people to forego the MMR vaccine and we’ll have diseases spread that are preventable.
I’m all for questioning Big Pharma but in this case we need to be very specific about studies on both sides of this issue. The vaccine court is not held to the same burden of proof as a legal court, so the proof is not the same.
Understood-all I have been saying is- informed choice.
I also don’t believe that the immunization link to Austism (if there is one) is the only cause. I have no idea, I’m not a researcher. I’m sure it’s case, by case.
Um, I think you said a little more than that:
So are you backing away from that statement?
Suspect and know are two different things. No, I am not backing away.
My statement, “I have no idea” refers to the multiple causes which may exist.
come-on Rotten, you can do better than that!
OK, so you’re not backing away from your suspicions. You suspect something based on your history, but then science (you know what that is — it’s where facts and data rule, not your suspicions) has shown that there is no connection.
So we have science vs your suspicions. I think I’ll choose science.
Some studies say yes, some say no. It’s not as cut and dried as most would have you believe.
I’m not asking anybody to accept my suspicions as fact. Just asking for an open mind.
You are free to choose science above ladkiddo’s opinion.
Yes, still free to choose.
The “other studies” link in your post purports to point to issues with thimerosol (a mercury compound) which is no longer in vaccines.
I am willing to have an open mind, if you had some scientific proof to back it up.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/eletters/112/6/1394
read the whole thing.
That letter to the editor (not a peer-reviewed study) is about thimerosol, which has been removed from vaccines as I said above.
My point is that the references you use are about a controversy that is over, yet you seem to think that they are about today’s vaccines, which do not contain this compound.
According to the letter, it is not, necessarily out of the vaccines. The controversy is far from over:
many vaccines given to children even today contain 25 micrograms of thimerosal including: pediatric Diphtheria-Tetanus (DT) vaccine, Tetanus-diphtheria (Td) vaccine, tetanus toxoid vaccine, meningitis vaccine, and influenza vaccine. Many of these vaccines have expiration dates towards the end of 2005, and there is no reason to think that the manufacturers are planning to completely remove thimerasol anytime soon. In fact several documents recently obtained from WHO state that is their policy to lobby strongly for maintaining thimerasol in childhood vaccines for the foreseeable future because they say it is necessary for use in third world counties and if it is removed from US vaccines these countries may refuse to use thimerasol containing vaccines.
Did you not read the link I posted about Japan? Japan does not use this vaccine and its rate of autism has NOT changed over time, either before the vaccine, during the time they used the vaccine and after they stopped. THAT speaks volumes, does it not? 904 subjects tested. That’s an “n” (number of subjects used in a research study) of huge proportions, considering many studies use an “n” of only 20.
I’m glad to question everything in life but we should try to make sure we’re asking the RIGHT questions.
lad - that letter to the editor is from 2003. They started phasing it out in 2001 I think. There was some left until 2005, but I think it’s out of the vaccines now. One exception is the flu vaccine, not the MMR http://www.immunize.org/thimerosal/ Flu vaccine is always optional.
Thanks andrea-that’s a great link!
Yes GA, I read the piece about Japan. Thank you.
I’m willing to accept that co-sleeping comes down to individual choice.
But immunization is different. Because of herd immunity and the possibility that some immunizations don’t provide immunity in all children, your decision not to immunize your child has an impact on my child.
If, as recently happened in Toronto, there’s a measles outbreak, schools that have herd immunity due to enough children being immunized will not have measles. Those that don’t, will risk an outbreak.
Herd immunity happens at a high (90%+) rate of group immunization.
This has nothing to do with big pharma, state coercion, etc. Immunization is by its nature a community effort. While I agree that perhaps the immunizations can be better formulated, spaced out, etc., at the bottom, the issue remains: is it right to ask all members of the community to take a small risk to protect the community against a bigger risk?
I think the answer in this case is yes, and I think that’s what society has decided over the years.
What you’re saying with “individual choice” is that it’s OK to be a “free rider”, someone who choose not to immunize their children but still reap the benefits of herd immunity. The free rider problem is a classic one in moral an political philosophy.
Nice, Rotten,
You did much better with this one.
A classic problem, no doubt.
I suggest that if you want to have a forum where you patronize people who are interested in a serious discussion, just post that at the front page so we won’t bother to comment any further.
Excuse me, but didn’t this comment come from you with my last controversial post?:
I think your emotion about the traditional paternalism of the AMA has gotten the better of your reason.
Let’s not go there.
Yes it did.
My point is that I’ve spent a lot of time trying to have a serious discussion with you about this, on and off of RT, and what I get back here is “much better” “not good enough” etc.
Informed choice, right, with “informed” being the operative word. Too many people think “informed” is suspecting something and holding fast to that belief. A belief is much different than a fact. The problem for me is that there may be some mother or father out there today blaming himself or herself for administering the MMR vaccine and “causing” their child to “come down” with autism.
There may be more than one way for autism to develop but the evidence is scant, at best, that it is caused by a vaccine.
Did you know that all over the world autism is about the same rate, in places such as India, where far fewer people are vaccinated?
From the American Journal of Psychiatry, June 2007:
“In child psychiatry, geographic comparisons discredited the hypothesis that well-baby immunizations cause autism; countries with versus without the vaccine have the same prevalence of autism “
Thank you,
Very good information to have.
Source of data: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/164/6/856
I understand the greater good. It has to do with survival. Humans have been doing that since the beginning of time, and succeeding. However, only now have our “never wrong” scientists and medical professionals found a way to “stop” the course of human evolution. Why would a natural immunity be important? Well, because whoever created humans kind of knew what they were doing. So, in walks the concept of “profit”. Does that not raise one eyebrow of suspicion for anyone? Well, immunizations are now being required at all types of different “choke” points, like college. Do you want to go to college? Well, we need to see your immunization records first. The bigger picture is that immunizations ARE working to incapacitate human homeostasis. Yes, people will die at the hands of disease and illness. Today however, people (children with no choice of their own) are being harmed at the hands of something that projects that no one should die.
I have an idea, why don’t we immunize for chicken pox. That way, when the immunization wears off you can get shingles as an adult. At least you would not have missed that valuable week of middle school. And, I love how people, who do not have a child that has been harmed by this immunization process, say “you child had to be harmed so mine wouldn’t be”. The community at large IS considered a herd, and is being used like one…with one exception…this herd has cash, and we would like some of it before we inject you with what we think is good for you.
“Cursed” immunizations? Why cursed? I’d say your choice of that word reveals your antipathy towards the medical establishment.
I’ll give you credit for linking to the CDC and AAP, but I disagree completely that immunizations should be optional. Given a choice, too many (most?) would opt out. We cannot rely on individual rational actors to make a wise choice about the health of the species.
It’s a little analogous to pollution. If living a non-polluting lifestyle is just a moral choice (not mandated), and one that has costs associated with it, then too few people participate, and we end up with a polluted planet.
I don’t believe that immunization skeptics should be exempt from an MMR any more than that global warming skeptics should be exempt from a catalytic converter.
Personally, I consider immunizations to be a blessing. (OK, I’m an Atheist, and don’t really do the bless / curse thing, but you get the idea.) In fact, as I’ve mentioned before, I’m pretty damn happy to be living in a time where we have a method set up to systematically test hypotheses and determine whether they are false or not false… you know… science?
Court judgments have nothing to do with scientific “truth” and everything to do with a persuasive attorney and a gullible jury. That’s a weak example.
To answer the question: “Are my studies bigger than your studies?” the answer is no. Obviously not all studies are created equal. However, there are a zillion bloggers out there linking to small studies in small journals and to each other and reinforcing this “connection” - at least in the eyes of Google.
That’s a real danger of our modern age - there’s so much information out there that anyone can find evidence to support any belief. The people who are educationally ill equipped to sort through all that information can pick and choose what to believe. The kooky stuff gets reinforced in the echo chamber until it darn near drowns out the opinions of experts.
This is similar to the global warming fight, too. There are studies on both sides, but the overwhelming scientific consensus is that global warming is real. Yet you can find millions of web sites linking to thousands of studies saying the opposite, and to hell with the science - what do those eggheads know, anyways?
Also, you mentioned that we should look at who is funding the studies. Well, we should also look at the motivations of the anti-immunization activists, too. How many have kids with Autism or Asberger’s and are desperately looking for an explanation?
Finally, I though this was a local political blog? How do these posts keep ending up here? Maybe KOS or someplace like that would be more appropriate - some place with a wider audience of people in both establishment medicine and alternative medicine. I strongly prefer the posts on local politics.
(Some poorly organized thoughts, here, sorry, I’m in a hurry.)
Itchy, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. I do not have antipathy towards the medical profession. I just don’t look at them as MDieties. they are human beings and their word is not law.
I have great respect for the medical profession and these topics come up because of the legislative impact.
To question something does not imply disrespect or antipathy. I have respect for the government, I will always question.
I called the immunizations cursed only because they had taken up so much of my time, it was like doing a thesis.
I’ve tried to present the information fairly. I appreciate the information that others have contributed.
got it - I misunderstood.
It was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt — that is not the standard of civil court.
How is it determined?
“Beyond a reasonable doubt” is purely a criminal standard. You would have to read the exact instructions given to the jury.
Thanks, I took it out.
Thanks!
Even if it was “beyond a reasonable doubt” that doesn’t mean a thing as far as the science of it is concerned.
It’s most likely a “preponderance of evidence”. The standard of proof is much lower in civil trials than in criminal ones. You can read more about it here.
In this case, my understanding is that the standard was a “preponderance of evidence” that it was “biologically plausible” that the vaccines might have caused her condition (in combination with pre-existing factors), not even that there was a “preponderance of evidence” that is actually happened.
Remember — exact language is very important in our legal system. It’s really a mistake to conflate criminal standards with civil ones.
See here is where I have problems with these lawsuits: “biologically plausible” means almost that nothing as a cause can be ruled out, almost anyway. It is biologically plausible then that the microwaves in cell phones bandying about the air cause autism since they are new technologies that have arisen and seem (emphasis on the word “seem”) to correlate with the rise in autism.
The maddening thing is that this MMR vaccine is given at a time when the social deficits inherent in autism *across all cultures* are most readily observable. If the vaccine were given at say age 2 years then those social deficits would show themselves before the vaccine in most cases.
However, giving the vaccine at age 2 years would allow the disease to infect kids so it is a hard choice.
I wonder about what Andrea said-spacing the immunizations. Would that be something that could lessen the impact on a child’s developing immune system? Maybe that’s the choice we need. Just a thought.
We make our pediatrician space them out, because it stinks for the baby to have all those shots at once. It makes them feel sick and cranky.
Some problems we’ve encountered: many of the vaccines are currently combined into a single shot (eg MMR,) you end up getting hit with a couple more co-pays and trips, and the office staff pegs you for a nut….
I think lakiddo has a good point with informed consent. What’s wrong with a little bit more information about something that has the potential to alter your child’s life? No one is saying that science is in the wrong here, but more research definitely needs to be done on this very difficult topic.
I am the proud mother of 3 beautiful children. 2 boys and 1 girl. Both my boys have been diagnosed with Autism. Do I blame the immunizations? Do I blame environmental factors? Do I blame genetics? Quite honestly, blaming is futile. It will not change the diagnosis of my boys. I would not be opposed to having more information on the subject. Those of you who are so convinced that science is undeniable should attend an Autism rally sometime with other parents who suffer and struggle with this day in and day out. We just want answers…in any form.
I do not have an opinion on whether or not immunizations are to blame in the case of my boys. I can tell you this for sure…if I had known about the controversy surrounding the immunizations when it was time for my kids to be immunized I would have definitely asked more questions, done more research, and considered spacing out the toxins being injected into my babies. I would take a few more co pays and the office staff thinking I am a nut anyday over having 2 Autistic children. You can’t even compare the two.
Thank you for bringing this to the fore front lakiddo. Mom to mom, supporter of cosleeping and home births, I am grateful for your voice here. Maybe we can all learn a little something.
thanks mm-it’s nice to hear.
What everyone seems to be missing here is the idea of informed consent. There is nothing wrong with the idea of researching whether or not shots can be given at longer intervals. There is not much research done on any of this and I thank lakiddo for bringing this to the forefront. There are some of you out there commenting that science rules over the rest and the idea of no immunizations can only be a negative thing. I really do not have an opinion either way. I believe in information, non-judgemental, honest to God information.
I am the proud mother of 3 beautiful children…2 boys and one girl. Both my boys are diagnosed with Autism. Do I blame immunizations? Do I blame environmental factors? Do I blame genetics? Who’s to say? And quite honestly, the damage is done. Blaming is not going to change the diagnosis of my children. Attend a rally on Autism sometime and meet other parents just like me who deal with this struggle and challenge on a daily basis. You may change your mind about what you believe to be true and what you believe to be hokey. Sometimes mothers of children with disabilities just need the information.
I can tell you one thing for sure. Had I know about the controversy over the immunizations when it was time for my kids to be immunized I would have DEFINITELY done things differently. I would have researched it more. I would have asked more questions. I would have requested spacing out the chemicals going into my babies. Would it have made a difference? Who knows. But at least I would have known that I did all I could do. So thank you lakiddo…mom to mom, believer of co-sleeping and home births. I am so glad you are not afraid of voicing your beliefs.
J Autism Dev Disord. 2007 Feb;37(2):210-7.
MMR-vaccine and regression in autism spectrum disorders: negative results presented from Japan.
Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y.
Department of Human Welfare, Otsuma Women’s University, 2-7-1, Karakida, Tama-city, Tokyo, 206-8540, Japan. tokiouch@otsuma.ac.jp
It has been suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR) is a cause of regressive autism. As MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993, this time period affords a natural experiment to examine this hypothesis. Data on 904 patients with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) were analyzed. During the period of MMR usage no significant difference was found in the incidence of regression between MMR-vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children. Among the proportion and incidence of regression across the three MMR-program-related periods (before, during and after MMR usage), no significant difference was found between those who had received MMR and those who had not. Moreover, the incidence of regression did not change significantly across the three periods.
I am a microbiologist by training. The story of Edward Jenner and his discovery of the smallpox vaccine was practically a “Genesis” story to my entire field of study. All my life I had believed that vaccines were unquestionably modern medicine’s greatest success story. When I was pregnant with my first child, a friend (whom I considered scientifically illiterate — as her degree was in dance) suggested that, “before you automatically put vaccines into your child, you look into the issue.” I agreed with her that I should look into this issue– and did so mostly to put my own mind at ease that I was an “informed consumer” on the topic — but also to prove my friend wrong and educate her — after all she was scientifically illiterate. I started with books by people like Neil Miller and did not find his arguments and data persausive — but then I read the book, Vaccination — 100 years of Orthodox Research Proves Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System. by Viera Scheibner. I was shocked at her assertions in the book, and so I went to the primary literature myself and got the articles to which she referred and read them– it totally changed my thinking on the issue to see that what she had alleged in her book was accurate. I also had the chance to meet with Dr Scheiber in person on several occasions and question her about statements that she made which at the time I did not understand. I then took what she told me to researchers at the CDC and my old microbiology professors, to hear their responses. Nothing the pro-vaccinators said could trump what Dr Scheibner said — and they all clung tenaciously to their view — but then all of them had their livelihoods invested in this issue and all of them had already vaccinated their own children. Going into this issue, I HAD NO AGENDA — OTHER THEN TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WOULD BE BEST FOR MY CHILD. I started out a “believer” in vaccines. After one year of intensely studying this issue I came away seeing this issue quite differently. I have since discussed this with many doctors and scientists who are adamantly pro-vaccine. One of the things I have found, is that few vaccine proponents have even bothered to read the primary literature for themselves, and I have yet to meet a single individual who has read and collectedand analyzed as many original research studies on the topic as Dr Scheibner. Human belief/bias is very profound. All of us, from an early age have grown up believing that vaccines do more good then harm, but I no longer believe this view is supported by the bulk of science. But I do absolutely believe that eventually, as a society we will be able to examine this issue dispassionately and then the truth will be obvious — that the risks are much greater then we are being told, and the benefits far less then what we believe.
The real issue here is that NO ONE can guarantee you that a vaccine will not cause injury to your child, and in a free society we do not force parents to offer up their perfectly healthy children as a sacrifice for the percieved benefit to the masses.
I also want to comment on the view expressed here that people who don’t vaccinate put others at risk. There is no science to support this statement — but their is science to support the opposite — that is that a recently vaccinated child can put others at risk. The live polio vaccine was in fact finally discontinued for this very reason — as it could be shed for weeks after being administered and it was causing about a dozen cases of paralysis each year in the US. The Chickenpox vaccine is also a concern for similar reasons — when our child has chickenpox, we keep them home — away from elderly people whose own immunity to this virus may be waning. But who keeps their recently vaccinated child home for the several weeks that they shed live varicella virus after being vaccinated? I believe that this explains many cases of shingles in elderly people who come into contact with newly vaccinated children. (Shingles can occur in partially immune individuals who come into contact with the chickenpox virus.
Herd immunity sounds so wonderful, but there are simply too many documented instances of epidemics occurring in fully vaccinated populations for me to believe that it is a reliable phenomonon.
Thanks for your response, JoAnne.