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	<title>Comments on: Clinton&#8217;s Kentucky Derby</title>
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	<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/</link>
	<description>turning the tide upstate</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Exile on Ericsson St.</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143284</link>
		<dc:creator>Exile on Ericsson St.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 17:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143284</guid>
		<description>Funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny.</p>
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		<title>By: whtwtrdood</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143233</link>
		<dc:creator>whtwtrdood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143233</guid>
		<description>Well, I was going to vote for Senator Obama but now that Senator Clinton is comparing her fight to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates to the anti-slavery and women's sufferage movements, I have to vote for her instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was going to vote for Senator Obama but now that Senator Clinton is comparing her fight to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates to the anti-slavery and women&#8217;s sufferage movements, I have to vote for her instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Rottenchester</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143109</link>
		<dc:creator>Rottenchester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 23:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143109</guid>
		<description>This is an example of the gross sophism that has taken over the Clinton campaign.  That sophism is characterized by two major themes and ambition that has no concern for the ultimate fate of the party if she isn't at the top of the ticket.  Her themes:

1.  Ignoring inconvenient facts.

These facts include the prior agreement among the candidates that Florida and Michigan don't count.   The fact that what counts is delegate totals, not popular votes, not "big states", not "blue states".  The fact that caucuses, no matter whether they are "fair" or not, are the agreed-upon method for electing delegates in a number of states.

2.  Absurd, red-herring statistics.

Winning more votes than any other candidate in history doesn't matter because Obama has won more.  The electoral vote totals of the states she's won don't matter because it's likely that Obama could win a good number of those states, too, and some of those states won't be won by any Democrat.  And on it goes.  Her minions gin up new statistics every day, with the cynical goal of giving her supporters false hope, and tricking the public into thinking that she has more of a chance than she does.

Her ambition fuels her rhetoric into ever more damaging heights.  At this moment, she's visiting the Florida counties where Gore lost in 2000 with the transparent aim of likening her situation there to Gore's.  This is an attempt to compare Obama to the Republicans who many Democrats believe stole the election.  She's sounded more like a Republican than McCain with some of her rhetoric in the past., because she will do anything to win, without regard to the damage to the inevitable nominee or the party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an example of the gross sophism that has taken over the Clinton campaign.  That sophism is characterized by two major themes and ambition that has no concern for the ultimate fate of the party if she isn&#8217;t at the top of the ticket.  Her themes:</p>
<p>1.  Ignoring inconvenient facts.</p>
<p>These facts include the prior agreement among the candidates that Florida and Michigan don&#8217;t count.   The fact that what counts is delegate totals, not popular votes, not &#8220;big states&#8221;, not &#8220;blue states&#8221;.  The fact that caucuses, no matter whether they are &#8220;fair&#8221; or not, are the agreed-upon method for electing delegates in a number of states.</p>
<p>2.  Absurd, red-herring statistics.</p>
<p>Winning more votes than any other candidate in history doesn&#8217;t matter because Obama has won more.  The electoral vote totals of the states she&#8217;s won don&#8217;t matter because it&#8217;s likely that Obama could win a good number of those states, too, and some of those states won&#8217;t be won by any Democrat.  And on it goes.  Her minions gin up new statistics every day, with the cynical goal of giving her supporters false hope, and tricking the public into thinking that she has more of a chance than she does.</p>
<p>Her ambition fuels her rhetoric into ever more damaging heights.  At this moment, she&#8217;s visiting the Florida counties where Gore lost in 2000 with the transparent aim of likening her situation there to Gore&#8217;s.  This is an attempt to compare Obama to the Republicans who many Democrats believe stole the election.  She&#8217;s sounded more like a Republican than McCain with some of her rhetoric in the past., because she will do anything to win, without regard to the damage to the inevitable nominee or the party.</p>
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		<title>By: stlo7</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143072</link>
		<dc:creator>stlo7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 20:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143072</guid>
		<description>Jiminy -

What exaclty is this?  Looks like a standard email solicitation.  

Not that Hillary needs my permission but she can do whatever she wants to do with regards to the race.  As I said earlier - I'm OK with here staying through June 2nd. I like the fact that each state is playing in the primary.  I like that it stretches the candidates.  Frankly - I can only imagine that it helps support the 50 state strategy.  Still - barring a meltdown - it isn't  going to matter - Obama is it.

With regards to her letter.

Just because you win a Dem Primary doesn't mean you win the state in a general.  I think that is a stretch

Florida and Michigan.  The voters be heard?  Too late for that.  The states moved up the primaries and frankly had they actually waited they could have had an more of an influence.  That said the Dem candidates agreed not to campaign in those states.  Seems like Hillary is trying to get a favorable result from this confusion.  Not that I don't blame her for trying but in the end the delegates will be seated and split -</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jiminy -</p>
<p>What exaclty is this?  Looks like a standard email solicitation.  </p>
<p>Not that Hillary needs my permission but she can do whatever she wants to do with regards to the race.  As I said earlier - I&#8217;m OK with here staying through June 2nd. I like the fact that each state is playing in the primary.  I like that it stretches the candidates.  Frankly - I can only imagine that it helps support the 50 state strategy.  Still - barring a meltdown - it isn&#8217;t  going to matter - Obama is it.</p>
<p>With regards to her letter.</p>
<p>Just because you win a Dem Primary doesn&#8217;t mean you win the state in a general.  I think that is a stretch</p>
<p>Florida and Michigan.  The voters be heard?  Too late for that.  The states moved up the primaries and frankly had they actually waited they could have had an more of an influence.  That said the Dem candidates agreed not to campaign in those states.  Seems like Hillary is trying to get a favorable result from this confusion.  Not that I don&#8217;t blame her for trying but in the end the delegates will be seated and split -</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Harding</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143071</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 20:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143071</guid>
		<description>If Clinton is using the argument that Oregon is a liberal state that will go Democratic anyway, then Obama can use the counterargument that New York is a blue state that will go his way, as is California, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Of course, Clinton's argument has been all along that states like California and New York ("big" states) are in her corner and in order to win the general, you need to have these "big" states.

Then again, Clinton's argument keeps changing. I thought you needed West Virginia to win in the election until she goes to Kentucky and tells voters there the exact same tale. 

You can't change the rules of the game in the middle (or near the end) of the game but Hillary Clinton has done just that. Even though Florida and Michigan both violated the rules, she insists they be counted. She has changed her tune numerous times, saying that the popular vote should be the measure of who is the better candidate and now saying that it is the &lt;i&gt;electoral&lt;/i&gt; vote. 

I'm sick of it. Obama is our nominee and let's get behind him IMMEDIATELY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Clinton is using the argument that Oregon is a liberal state that will go Democratic anyway, then Obama can use the counterargument that New York is a blue state that will go his way, as is California, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Of course, Clinton&#8217;s argument has been all along that states like California and New York (&#8221;big&#8221; states) are in her corner and in order to win the general, you need to have these &#8220;big&#8221; states.</p>
<p>Then again, Clinton&#8217;s argument keeps changing. I thought you needed West Virginia to win in the election until she goes to Kentucky and tells voters there the exact same tale. </p>
<p>You can&#8217;t change the rules of the game in the middle (or near the end) of the game but Hillary Clinton has done just that. Even though Florida and Michigan both violated the rules, she insists they be counted. She has changed her tune numerous times, saying that the popular vote should be the measure of who is the better candidate and now saying that it is the <i>electoral</i> vote. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sick of it. Obama is our nominee and let&#8217;s get behind him IMMEDIATELY.</p>
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		<title>By: jiminybizbo</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143063</link>
		<dc:creator>jiminybizbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143063</guid>
		<description>Let's let Hillary address the question...

Dear Rochester Turning.com reader,

I owe our 35-point win in Kentucky yesterday to your incredible support. So let me ask you -- do you think we should let the TV talking heads have the final say in this race? Or should we do what we have always done, and fight together for what you and I believe in? 

I have never for one moment forgotten what this race is about -- the millions of people who are looking to you and me for the leadership America needs. It's about getting our economy moving again. It's about bringing the war in Iraq to a responsible end. It's about fulfilling America's energy needs while protecting the planet for our children and grandchildren. It's about making sure that every man, woman, and child in America has health care. 

Now we have just three races left, and your help is absolutely critical in these final two weeks. So let's do it. Let's keep fighting and winning together, as we have all along. 

Contribute today and let's keep driving toward victory. 

Let's talk about the state of this race. 

I've won more votes than anyone running for the Democratic nomination in the history of our party. I've won states that will total 308 electoral votes in November -- more than enough to carry the general election. And it is critical that we make certain the more than 2 million voters in Florida and Michigan are heard. 

We can let the media decide this race. We can let the pundits be the ones who determine our party's nominee. Or we can listen to the voters. Yesterday, voters in Kentucky joined you in sending a clear message -- this campaign is far from over. 

Throughout it all, through the ups and downs of this race, you've been there, supporting me every step of the way. Help me send a strong message that this race isn't over yet. 

Contribute now to help us in the final three races. 

I'm so proud of what we accomplished yesterday in Kentucky, and of all the victories we celebrated together. We've worked too hard to stop now. Thank you for your incredible support. I don't have to tell you that I couldn't do this without you. 

Sincerely, 

Hillary Rodham Clinton 

hillary clinton dot com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s let Hillary address the question&#8230;</p>
<p>Dear Rochester Turning.com reader,</p>
<p>I owe our 35-point win in Kentucky yesterday to your incredible support. So let me ask you &#8212; do you think we should let the TV talking heads have the final say in this race? Or should we do what we have always done, and fight together for what you and I believe in? </p>
<p>I have never for one moment forgotten what this race is about &#8212; the millions of people who are looking to you and me for the leadership America needs. It&#8217;s about getting our economy moving again. It&#8217;s about bringing the war in Iraq to a responsible end. It&#8217;s about fulfilling America&#8217;s energy needs while protecting the planet for our children and grandchildren. It&#8217;s about making sure that every man, woman, and child in America has health care. </p>
<p>Now we have just three races left, and your help is absolutely critical in these final two weeks. So let&#8217;s do it. Let&#8217;s keep fighting and winning together, as we have all along. </p>
<p>Contribute today and let&#8217;s keep driving toward victory. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s talk about the state of this race. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve won more votes than anyone running for the Democratic nomination in the history of our party. I&#8217;ve won states that will total 308 electoral votes in November &#8212; more than enough to carry the general election. And it is critical that we make certain the more than 2 million voters in Florida and Michigan are heard. </p>
<p>We can let the media decide this race. We can let the pundits be the ones who determine our party&#8217;s nominee. Or we can listen to the voters. Yesterday, voters in Kentucky joined you in sending a clear message &#8212; this campaign is far from over. </p>
<p>Throughout it all, through the ups and downs of this race, you&#8217;ve been there, supporting me every step of the way. Help me send a strong message that this race isn&#8217;t over yet. </p>
<p>Contribute now to help us in the final three races. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m so proud of what we accomplished yesterday in Kentucky, and of all the victories we celebrated together. We&#8217;ve worked too hard to stop now. Thank you for your incredible support. I don&#8217;t have to tell you that I couldn&#8217;t do this without you. </p>
<p>Sincerely, </p>
<p>Hillary Rodham Clinton </p>
<p>hillary clinton dot com</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143062</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143062</guid>
		<description>I've got no problem with Hillary staying in until the bitter end.  But, I also have no problem with Obama turning his attentions to McCain and the general either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got no problem with Hillary staying in until the bitter end.  But, I also have no problem with Obama turning his attentions to McCain and the general either.</p>
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		<title>By: jiminybizbo</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143058</link>
		<dc:creator>jiminybizbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143058</guid>
		<description>I think speculation is foolish.  

Only Hillary should decide when Hillary thinks it's over.

Period.

This is democracy.  Anything less is Republican.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think speculation is foolish.  </p>
<p>Only Hillary should decide when Hillary thinks it&#8217;s over.</p>
<p>Period.</p>
<p>This is democracy.  Anything less is Republican.</p>
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		<title>By: Exile on Ericsson St.</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143056</link>
		<dc:creator>Exile on Ericsson St.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143056</guid>
		<description>Dana Milbank said it best: "They say it's all over but the shouting. Fortunately, Hillary Clinton does that part very well."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana Milbank said it best: &#8220;They say it&#8217;s all over but the shouting. Fortunately, Hillary Clinton does that part very well.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: DragonFlyEye</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143040</link>
		<dc:creator>DragonFlyEye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 18:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143040</guid>
		<description>Beyond the Appalachian voter connection that Josh Marshall has been discussing, and beyond Rotten's salient point about the difference between primaries and generals, there is the question of what, precisely Hillary won.

They keep discussing race voters as though they're exclusively Barack Obama's problem, but I think it reveals a larger Conservatism that presents a problem for both candidates.  Yes, Hillary can win in Appalachia against a black man.  But when it comes down to a woman versus a white man like John McCain, will that same set of prejudiced voters rain on her parade as well?

Granted there's no evidence of this, but that's largely because any polling data there might be (and there might not be any) on West Virginia or Kentucky general election preferences is not being reported.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beyond the Appalachian voter connection that Josh Marshall has been discussing, and beyond Rotten&#8217;s salient point about the difference between primaries and generals, there is the question of what, precisely Hillary won.</p>
<p>They keep discussing race voters as though they&#8217;re exclusively Barack Obama&#8217;s problem, but I think it reveals a larger Conservatism that presents a problem for both candidates.  Yes, Hillary can win in Appalachia against a black man.  But when it comes down to a woman versus a white man like John McCain, will that same set of prejudiced voters rain on her parade as well?</p>
<p>Granted there&#8217;s no evidence of this, but that&#8217;s largely because any polling data there might be (and there might not be any) on West Virginia or Kentucky general election preferences is not being reported.</p>
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		<title>By: Rottenchester</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143030</link>
		<dc:creator>Rottenchester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 17:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143030</guid>
		<description>Blue collar voters might prefer Hillary to Obama in a Hillary vs. Obama context.  That doesn't imply that they prefer McCain over Obama.  Those are totally different questions.   

Couple of data points:

Latest Survey USA polls shows Obama beating McCain in PA by 8 points.  That's one of Hillary's blue-collar states.

Obama won working-class whites in Oregon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blue collar voters might prefer Hillary to Obama in a Hillary vs. Obama context.  That doesn&#8217;t imply that they prefer McCain over Obama.  Those are totally different questions.   </p>
<p>Couple of data points:</p>
<p>Latest Survey USA polls shows Obama beating McCain in PA by 8 points.  That&#8217;s one of Hillary&#8217;s blue-collar states.</p>
<p>Obama won working-class whites in Oregon.</p>
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		<title>By: Rottenchester</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143026</link>
		<dc:creator>Rottenchester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143026</guid>
		<description>Blue collar voters might prefer Hillary to Obama in a Hillary vs. Obama context.  That doesn't imply that they prefer McCain over Obama.  Those are totally different questions.   

Couple of data points:

Latest Survey USA polls shows Obama beating McCain in PA by 8 points.  That's one of Hillary's blue-collar states.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/196059.php

Obama won working-class whites in Oregon.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/oregon_exit_polls_obama_handil.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blue collar voters might prefer Hillary to Obama in a Hillary vs. Obama context.  That doesn&#8217;t imply that they prefer McCain over Obama.  Those are totally different questions.   </p>
<p>Couple of data points:</p>
<p>Latest Survey USA polls shows Obama beating McCain in PA by 8 points.  That&#8217;s one of Hillary&#8217;s blue-collar states.</p>
<p><a href="http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/196059.php" rel="nofollow">http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/196059.php</a></p>
<p>Obama won working-class whites in Oregon.</p>
<p><a href="http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/oregon_exit_polls_obama_handil.php" rel="nofollow">http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/oregon_exit_polls_obama_handil.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143023</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 15:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143023</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure how/why people believe Obama is an elitist, but Hillary isn't.  It's a strange world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how/why people believe Obama is an elitist, but Hillary isn&#8217;t.  It&#8217;s a strange world.</p>
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		<title>By: Grievous Angel</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143022</link>
		<dc:creator>Grievous Angel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 15:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143022</guid>
		<description>I'm thinking more about where Hillary's strengths are (blue collar workers) and how that eats into McCain's votes.  But the latest polls show Obama ahead of McCain so perhaps I shouldn't worry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m thinking more about where Hillary&#8217;s strengths are (blue collar workers) and how that eats into McCain&#8217;s votes.  But the latest polls show Obama ahead of McCain so perhaps I shouldn&#8217;t worry.</p>
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		<title>By: stlo7</title>
		<link>http://rochesterturning.com/2008/05/21/clintons-kentucky-derby/#comment-143021</link>
		<dc:creator>stlo7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 15:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rochesterturning.com/?p=4828#comment-143021</guid>
		<description>Sure- play out the hand as negotiations are occuring to ensure a role for our junior Senator.  I actually beleive there isn't much damage caused here if we go just past Memorial Day.  Barring some absolute meltdown Obama is it.

I also believe that just because you win a Dem primary doesn't mean you win the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure- play out the hand as negotiations are occuring to ensure a role for our junior Senator.  I actually beleive there isn&#8217;t much damage caused here if we go just past Memorial Day.  Barring some absolute meltdown Obama is it.</p>
<p>I also believe that just because you win a Dem primary doesn&#8217;t mean you win the state.</p>
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