Famous or infamous?
Yesterday, Angel wrote about the Rochester area being #1. Here’s another something that I’m not sure that we want to be famous for:
Americans United for Separation of Church and State today filed a lawsuit in federal district court against a town council in New York that opens its public sessions with Christian prayer.
Americans United sued the Greece, N.Y., Town Board and its supervisor, John Auberger, on behalf of two local residents who object to government-sponsored religious activities that favor one faith over others. The lawsuit alleges that almost all of the board’s opening prayers are explicitly Christian, and that since 2004, only a single non-Christian has been invited to deliver the opening prayer.
We wrote about this back in November when we attended the open forum in Greece. Ever since George bush took office, this has become a national trend-Faith Based Initiatives were all the rage to help muddy the waters in the separation of church and state. Now public prayer is assumed to be ok too. It’s all a ploy to woo the Christian Right, and it will no longer be tolerated. There is a price to pay for trampling on the constitution once again.
(Edit by Itchy: It’s important to remember that the Supervisor and Town Board are all orthodox Christians.)
[...] As Ladkiddo said Greece is getting sued.ÂÂ Fine - excellent - Glad to see it let’s settle it once and for all. [...]
It seems to me that a simple solution to the problem would be the board meets privately prior to the meeting, has their prayer, and then goes out and begins to conduct the Town’s business. Everybody’s happy, right?
It isn’t about prayer it is about mention a deity (any deity) in that prayer. That is what is at issue.
So your lumping of prayer and mention of a specific deity as one and the same is incorrect. I think it was unintentional (at least hope so) but incorrect nevertheless.
You are suggesting doing that behind closed doors?
Yes, what is the problem with them meeting in an office 10 minutes prior to the start of the council meeting, having a prayer that others find offensive, concluding it, then going into the Meeting Room and conducting the people’s business. Aren’t they afforded rights as well?
Sure they have rights but mention a deity (any deity) in that prayer at a government sponsored event isn’t one of them. Open, behind closed doors whatever it isn’t one of them.
Let’s not forget they are conducting the people’s business behind that closed door.
What if I am muslim or a jew do i have to listen to my christian prayer colleagues? Just do the work. Don’t quibble about asking someone for guidance regarding whether I should give them divine intervention on a zoning law or posting a speed sign. If you are at work today, you make every decision all day long at work without once praying, asking your colleagues to prayer, asking the company to pray. You just do. The gov’t has a job to do. It should just do it.
Actually, I pray each morning before I do anything else and amongst other things, I ask for guidance. I also pray throughout the day, as needed, whenever I seek guidance.
The family next door are practicing Muslims and they pray five times a day, at set times, regardless of anything else that may be going on. (His employer, a practicing Christian, was happy to make the allowance by the way.) When I see him tomorrow I’ll let him know he has to stop.
Hey - way to get off track and confuse the issue. really really nice job…
We are discussing government business, government conduct via government officials at a meeting. Not private employers, not your morning ritual, not your neighbor.
Feel free to tell your neighbor to stop but then you would be wrong now wouldn’t you?
That whole freedom of Religion thing.
I think your final comment is misleading and could cause people to think that the board is made up of Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox practitioners. I think what you meant was “mainstream Christian”.
Go back and re-read the excellent research RT has done on this issue. Look at the backgrounds of the Town Bored. Look at the litigation I posted below. Look at the religious groups who were EXCLUDED from the path of righteousness that the Town Bored has walked. Oh…and Bless you!
Hang on Jiminy - Bill as a point - from a terminology perspective. I’m not sure “mainstream” works in this case but I have to think about it.
He’s referring to the addition by Itchy of the words “Orthodox Christians”…
I agree with Itchy. Read the litigation. Prior to Auberger’s election, Boiley opened town meetings with a moment of silence. Let’s also not forget, this is the LARGEST town in Monroe County, which creates the largest group of diversity.
In the litigation, each and every place of worship that was not a prescribed “Jesus” worshipping institution, or in one case, a Vietnamese Church, that apparently didn’t make the cut because they were Vietnamese (? assumed)…and looking at their backgrounds and education…Christian Orthodox works.
The AU people may also want to FOIL the Town’s receipts to find out why the taxpayers of Greece paid to install the sewer lines ON the church properties here. I’m not talking hook-up, I’m talking church property. So in addition to paying no taxes, taxpayers are forced to make “donations” through the use of government services.
And let’s not forget Stlo7, the Greece Town Bored is made up of almost 100% individuals whose day jobs are direct employment in the administration of Maggie Brooks.
So we’re not just talking about some local religious extremists…and just like Las Vegas…nothing that happens in Greece is a coincidence. This is the breeding ground for breakthrough research and testing by Steve-Oh Minarik.
The rest of the Supervisors, like Ralphie Boy Esposito watch, eye’s a glow, as the orders are carried out by the loyalists in Greece - a town so big they’re hoping no one notices.
The First Amendment to the Constitution reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
This amendment has been stretched way too far. A prayer at a Greece Town Board meeting or a Nativity Scene at the Corning Town Hall have nothing to do with congress or establishing a religion.
the 1st amendment has been stretched too far? Says who the Supreme Court with a ruling that government sponsored nonsecular prayer is not acceptable at government function - secular prayer (no deity names) is ok?
The Constitution was designed to be interpreted which is why we are a nation of laws not men with the foundation of those laws rooted in the constitution.
Supreme Court also said that Al Gore lost the 2000 election and I’m sure you accepted that ruling.
By the way, the constitution can be amended by using Article VI
Re Al Gore - Yes, I did. Liking it and accepting it are two separate things. But you know that.
Yes it can be amended and has. What is your point?
The point is that public prayer is not mentioned in the constitution - and if someone wants it banned laws should be passed or the constitution amended
Elmer - Actually it is mentioned - the 1st amendment you quoted earlier.
It may be convenient to say something is or is not explicitly in the constitution. The inconvenient truth of that argument is that the constitution is the foundation of all the subsequent interpretations of the laws are what remain in effect today.
Again - laws, not men, as I’ve stated elsewhere.
Public prayer has been interpreted as OK - nonsecular prayer at a government sponsored function has been interpreted as not OK.
it is that simple.
Saying a prayer at a public meeting does not establish a religion and the Greece Town board cannot possibly be thought of as congress. I know the Supreme Court has indicated this, but that doesn’t mean that a different Supreme Court wouldn’t overturn it. These types of things should be legislated by the peoples’ representatives.
Elmer - they have - the various laws that has come since the constitution was adopted.
Laws exist - the Judical branch interprets the laws against the body of laws in existence.
Again - the body of laws (Current Supreme Court interpretation) says prayer is OK a deity specific to a religion or a symbol is not OK at a government sponsored activity.
If I were running a government meeting, I would not permit a prayer to be said because I would not want to make anyone uncomfortable.
I don’t like it when things are read into the constitution that are not really there. What happens when the Supreme Court at some future time decides that the right to free exercise of religion trumps the non establishment part of the amendment?
I prefer a more literal interpretation of the constitution. It is the best way to do it, protecting everyone’s rights. Problems such as prayer at town meetings can then be taken up by congress or the state legislatures.
Unfortunately were are built on the foundation of laws interpreted through our history.
Sort of difficult to cast that all away under the guise strict constructional ism
No Elmer - it’s been stretched too THIN, like using Muslims with guns on GOP Mailers during an election.
Do as I say…amazing…
There are Muslims with guns; they also have knives to chop people’s heads off, but what does this have to do with the constitution?
You need to get out more Elmer. And remember - the only “muslim with the gun” that was responsible for the attacks on 911 was Osama bin Laden - a man with rich family ties to your fearless leader Bush, and a man who - to this date - has never been caught or captured.
That should keep you and your right wing friends awake at night. Fearing your muslim neighbor is the least of your concerns.
Did I mention that I fear my Muslim neighbor? Did I mention Bush as my fearless leader? You have quite an imagination.
Elmer, that point is often made. The problem is it doesn’t work. When the Constitution was ratified there were no other bodies of government.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that congress in the Constitution refers to all levels of government and that establishment includes the favoring of one religion over another.
If the local sheriff comes to your house and says, “Elmer pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or else.” That’s establishment.
This isn’t a new intrepretation, it is old law.
I was simply responding to the point Bigboy directed at me. As far as neighbor goes, the last time I checked, the City of Buffalo was a government agency.
Go ahead and pray. Just don’t force me to waste my taxpayers dollars to take time to do it. I don’t need to see this type of entertainment.
And I just want to thank you for making my point. you wrote
Well first off, the City of Buffalo is his employer, His boss a government employee is bound by law to allow this person the ability to practice his religion without interference.
What exactly is your point?
I only have 2 words to describe my feelings regarding this lawsuit:
THANK GOD!
Here’s a copy of the litigation for all to review. Note that one of the Plaintiff’s is a former detective with the GREECE POLICE DEPARTMENT. So much for lack of credibility!
http://www.au.org/site/DocServer/Greece-Complaint-and-Exhibits-A-E.pdf?docID=2461&JServSessionIdr004=cqnxffetb1.app5b
That litigation mentions the fact that Scout Troops often visit Town Board Meetings. I don’t think the AU.Org site has seen the badge of Troop 195 in Greece:
http://img801.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/02/29/bsatroop195-49oheo1cp.jpeg
It’s while he’s working. Isn’t he wasting “your taxpayer dollars”?
Yeah wasting tax dollars as much as when he gets some tea, goes to the bathroom or calls home to say he will be late for dinner.
Nice try - need to do better that that.
Bigboy’s the one that complained about his tax dollars being wasted while govt. employees prayed on the job, not me.
And I stand by it. Too much sarcasm in the posts in the posts. Point is whtwtrdood doesn’t “get it” an we are way to nice to tell him.
I’m afraid I have a much moer cynical reading of Auberger’s use of prayer. I think it has litte to do with reltion and everything to do with servig his base.
THE Christian nation typed are big supporters of Auberger who is fond of using locutions about the right kind of people. He sometime uses the kind of political code word Bush etc use to indicate they are on someone’s side.
Let’s keep greece safe for th right kind of people.
HA ha,
This is the point I was trying to make at the end of the post. It’s not at all about practicing religion, it’s about cow-towing to the Christian Right. The problem is, they defy the constitution and the laws which have been established, based on the constitution in doing so. Thank you.
It’s more than praying, not praying, or sectarian, nonsectarian. I agree with the last post that it is how they use religion. If I am a citizen living in Greece and not Christian, or not White, or not straight, I might feel intimidated by the board members and/or excluded based on the image they project with their prayers and ideology.
[...] that the Alliance Defense Fund is defending the Town of Greece. You know the lawsuit filed by Americans United for Separation of Church and State against the Town of Greece. I discussed it [...]