Warning: Right-wing Christian takover of Greece in progress
Reader Ichiro wrote such a good comment to jrviper’s excellent post this morning that I feel it deserves it’s own post. As a Christian, I believe Christ brought a message of love, joy, and compassion, not the hate, fear, and control I see coming out of the Christian right in the US these days. Christ belongs in the heart, not in the government. “Render unto Caesar” was as close as he got to meddling in government, and that was a simple admonition to pay your taxes. 
But I digress. Here’s the entirety of ichiro’s comment:
What were they thinking?
A first-year law student could follow the precedent on this and tell you that generic prayer was OK, and that sectarian prayer was over the line.
So why does it take someone from out of town to point it out? What were these people thinking?
Where was the Town Attorney when this decision was made? How could the organization have made such an irresponsible decision?
Here are the people in the Greece goverment who are responsible for this decision:
Town Attorney: Raymond DiRaddo is a graduate of Saint Louis University School of Law, a Christian university.
Town Board:
*Mike Barry is a parishioner at Our Mother of Sorrows. He graduated from Bishop Kearney HS. He has a BA and a Masters from Niagara University, a Catholic school.
*Bob Bilsky is a member of St. Charles Borromeo Church. His daughter attends Samford University, a fundamentalist Baptist school in Alabama.
*Jerry Helfer graduated from Concordia College, an evangelical Christian school in Minnesota.
*Rick Antelli is member of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization.Town Supervisor: Auberger is a Christian who wears his religion on his sleeve.
These people let their religious beliefs cloud their judgement. They broke the law.
Are they Christians first, or Americans first? Which other laws are they breaking (or not enforcing) because of their faith?
_____________________________________________
From the Christian Legal Society:
Marsh. Snyder v. Murray City Corp., 159 F.3d 1227 (10th Cir. 1998). The Tenth Circuit found that legislative prayer runs afoul of the Establishment Clause under Marsh if the prayer “proselytizes a particular religious tent or belief,†“aggressively advocates a specific religious creed,†or “derogates another religious faith or doctrineâ€
All you moderate Republicans and Independents in Greece? This is the kind of thing you’re enabling when voting GOP. Something to think about, since I know you don’t want a theocracy any more than we do!
woo hoo I’m a blogger!
By the way, it’s interesting that legislative prayer to specific gods used to be OK, until an atheist asked to be included in the line-up….
The legislature in question denied the request. The atheist, sued, and lost. That’s where the “derogates another religious faith or doctrine” language comes from.
I forget where this happened, but I’ll try to look it up on Monday.
Is there anyone from another political viewpoint, Dem, Green, Independent, Boiled Frog Party-ANYBODY running for town board in Greece? Seems like a good time for a takeover.
Maybe they could start a new party called the NaR (Not a Republican). This way, anyone who is Dem, Working Families, Independent, Blank, Green could sign petitions to get candidates on ballot. Just a thought.
Greece has always been a hotbed of right-wing nuttery and it always will be. Better just to laugh at it than to try to reason with these kinds of people.
Did you happen to notice the posts by the Greece blogger, providing a link citing this page from The Onion?
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39182
They have since been “deleted by the author”.
I read that link and I have to ask if that is for real?
I can only hope that it was an opportunity to add some levity to a tense debate, however, being that they were deleted I seem to feel as though they were suprisingly taken as gospel (pun intended) and later reconsidered given the source.
Good catch. I did notice that they mentioned that.
I’m pretty sure they believed it.
Exile,
I will respond with you initial statement,
“Better just to laugh at it than to try to reason with these kinds of people.”
Ok, here we go, the link in question and a new one from The Onion have been posted by one going by the name of Rovebot.
I’ve been giving this some thought and am going to go out on a limb regarding comments by Rovebot. The comments seem to be so far out there by design, it wouldn’t suprise me if this is performance art from the left to critique the right .
If this is the case. Simply brilliant.
I’ve been thinking the exact same thing about ‘Rovebot’ for months.
Was the convening of the Continental Congress begun with a prayer? I’m just wondering where/when this practice started in a country whose founders were fleeing state-sanctioned religion.
Maybe all of you guys should take it down a notch.
Do you really think comparing the Greece Administration to a theocracy is valid? I doubt that there are any latter-day Torquemadas in Greece Town government.
Moreover, one of the things that bothers some people about the incident is that the parties who were “offended” by the prayer obviously went to the meeting precisely so that they could be “offended”. It creates a phoniness about the “controversy”.
I think there just may be too many lawyers in this country. It is not necessary to vindicate every “right” on every possible occasion of an “offense”, however slight. Please don’t give me the “slippery slope” argument; its too far a reach from a brief mention of Jesus at the beginning of a meeting to a modern Inquisition.
Wow. Let me to try reply to that, but I don’t have much time.
I don’t live in Greece, so maybe the board does keep a strict wall of separation between church and state except for the prayer bit. I don’t know, so I’ll let others handle that bit and give you the benefit of the doubt for now. On the other hand, even the prayer is a big deal
First of all, the town of Greece is disobeying the Constitution, aka the strongest law of the land. Plain and simple.
Secondly, it is perfectly fine to find prayer of a specific religion offensive. That’s one of the big reasons for separation of church and state.
As for the “phoniness”, it’s part of the legal system. You can’t sue until you have standing, after all.
Many non-Christians are made uncomfortable when the strictly secular government has any prayer at all, since while the prayer may be ostensibly non-denomination, it’s based on Christian structure and unconsciously shaped to sound like a Christian prayer, as opposed to, say, a Hindu one. And that’s to say nothing of the feelings of Atheists.
But we have the compromise of the non-denominational prayer. Fine. Having explicitly Christian prayer is illegal and wrong. It would be illegal and wrong if every man woman and child in Greece were a Christian. Religious matters should be left to religious institutions. When you don’t have that separation, you get situations like the Kansas State Board of Education forcing the teaching of religious gospel in Science Class.
Personally, I have sympathy for the idea of Intelligent Design. It is as valid a philosophical point as creationism is. However, both ideas should be taught in Sunday school, the home, or anywhere but organs of the state.
I agree. “Controversy” should be in quotes. The board is clearly breaking the law, no controversy here.
Your entire post contains the straw man fallacy. No one is saying that there will be a modern inquisition. What we are saying is that the town of Greece is acting both illegally and inappropriately, and it would be a very bad idea if they keep doing it.
The D&C Forums contain a lively discussion showing a truly frightening mix of spite and ignorance.
For the record, folks, the US was based on the liberal ideals of the Enlightenment, not Christian Values. Most of the founding fathers were Deists and therefore not Christian, and the idea of Separation of Church and State is a cornerstone of our entire structure of government.
The whole system of government in the US, furthermore, was created so that we could avoid both the Tyranny of the Majority and the Tyranny of the Minority. Claiming that being in the Majority allows you to do whatever you want is in direct contradiction to the basic idea of the rule of law.
showing a truly frightening mix of spite and ignorance.
Only among people who live in Greece and Chili. Big surprise there.
Of course, what I say is totally unfair, but it’s disappointing when the worst stereotypes of an area come true. It’s disappointing that so many of the commenters (though not all!) on the Greece blog in particular are just the sort of Fox News watching, Bush-worshiping cretins the rest of the county stereotypes them as being.
I’m sure they’re not representative, but still, it’s depressing.
Yeah, I do think it’s valid, John. I’ll say more later.
John, I always like it when you come by because you’re a conservative I don’t have to pull my punches with . We may not agree but you like a tough, fair argument as much as I do.
I respect that.
As an alum of Concordia College, Moorhead, I feel compelled to point out that Concordia is an affiliate of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. The ELCA is a far cry from the right-wing theocrats you and I question and criticize. Please do not mistake the “evangelical” of the ELCA with the Evangelical Christian movement currently overtaking the American landscape. Here it simply means Protestant. To demonstrate, I would refer to Concordia’s mission statement and its exegesis: “The purpose of Concordia College is the influence the affairs of the world by sending into society thoughtful and informed men and women dedicated to the Christian life.” Carl Bailey, the academic dean at the time the mission statement was written notes, “We were careful not to say students should be Christians. We wanted all students to translate the meaning of a Christian life into their own lives.” Please see http://www.cord.edu/dept/cool/mission.html
Emily, thanks for this clarification. I wish more Christians would try to make their own lives more Christ-like rather than trying to force their particular brand of Christianity on the rest of us.
[...] Finally, the Greece Town Board believes that secular prayer is appropriate at a government function.ÂÂ Yes, Secular prayer the kind where you mention a specific Deity. ÂÂ I wonder why….ÂÂ Check out the this post or that one. [...]
The complainant originally attended a town board meeting to address the issue of public access television. Perhaps, the town of Greece should erect walls to keep out the infidels.
One more thing. Let’s clarify the words “secular” and “sectarian.” Even the D&C reporter was confused. Secular is nonreligious. Sectarian is religious. The town of Greece is allowing sectarian prayers to be recited.
Hi everyone,
I am the leader of the Greece Democratic Committee. Yes, WE DO exist and are growing all the time. We have 4 outstandingly qualified inividuals running for town board this year an a much needed County legislative candidate who is second to none!!! Anyone interested in helping out with the campaigns or the committee should contact me directly.
Now that we got that out of the way (and trust me, this isn’t the last you’ve heard of the Democratic candidates in Greece) I’d like to address the prayer issue..
This should not be a discussion about what religious beliefs people hold, rather a discussion about what political beliefs people hold. Politically our country was founded on the idea that there would be no national religion. This was done in order to avoid religious persecution, to protect government and to protect religion!!! If we look throughout history and modern times, it is when we mix religion with government that many conflicts begin and these conflicts are passionate and severe since religious beliefs are often part of the very fiber of our being, so much so that people will defend them to their deaths.
Does prayer at a town board meeting cause persecution and war? Probably not. However, if we begin to mix church and state at any level it opens the door to grander infringement.
Lest we forget that the founding fathers were CLEAR on the seperation of church and state, I’ll refer to Thomas Jefferson who said “Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.” and James Madison who said “An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against……Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance……..religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government.” as well as “The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the stateâ€ÂÂ
Points of fact for our conservative friends…The folks who attended the meeting in question were there for another issue [public access TV] when they heard the prayer. They are not the only folks complaining about this. There are a number of town residents concerned about this. It’s telling in and of itself that many are fearful to come out worried about retaliation by the town.
Equally imporatant as to where the town fathers went to school [there are no women or minorities on a town board of a municipality with 100,000 people. I guess everyone in Greece just happens to be an older white guy] is the pandering to one particular church that has received special “favors” from the town.
Here’s one example, no other church gets its own special police detail every week to direct traffic when a service lets out. This is provided at taxpayer expense to make it easier for the congregation.
And yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus.
The Greece dems are running several good candidates. Especially Judy Knights. Get to know her she’s running in the second ward and needs the support of enlightened people. A well-educated smart black woman on the council, they won’t what to do.
[...] original post is well off the front page but it is never too late to hop on to this discussion.  I saw this [...]
[...] We should mention, too, our previous post on the Christian Right’s control of the Greece Town Board. [...]