Holding a mirror to the blame shifting arguments
I’m sure you are tired of these blame shifting arguments with regards to Foley.
- It is a Democratic Conspiracy
- Democrats do it too so Dems are hypocrites
- The liberal media is to blame.
Subscribing to these counter arguments is avoiding the issue. Foley, a creep in adult clothing to be sure, but the bigger issue is that the Republicans have demostrated self-preservation political motives at the expense of leadership and accountability by perpetuating the improper behavior of Foley and other House members. Leadership is about leading, not blindly following.
But you knew that already. One of my koolaid drinking buddies didn’t so here is what happened.
I’m lectured about Gerry Studs (D-MA) and Dan Crane (R-Ill.) (both news to me until I listened to Limbaugh on the ride home one day) and that the Democrats condone such behavior because they reelected Studds. Republicans have a higher standard since they didn’t reelect Crane.
Just some background for you - Congressman Studds had sex with a 17 year old male page. Congressman Dan Crane has sex with a 17 year old female page. Both were censured in 1983. Crane loses reelection. Studds wins reelection and continued to be reelected until the mid 1990s.
In addition, I’m told that since everyone knows, certainly the Democrats knew and no one reported it so it is all election day politics. Then right on queue, Clinton and Monica got dropped into the conversation.
Before my head explodes I respond
How many wrongs make a right? Two? Three? Five?
Gerry Studds and the other guy were censured thus punished. You don’t like that Studds was reelected? Take that up with his election district. Clinton? Get over it! He was impeached.
Foley used the internet to solicit a 16 year old kid - apparently more than once. This is not only illegal but indicates lack of moral character. He resigned but the issue here is that the House leadership covered up Foley for political purposes. The House leadership knew about this almost a year ago and chose to do nothing.
This is failed leadership and lack of accountability and both should be non-partisan.
I continue to point out that the Democrats are not in charge - the Republicans are. This is about being above the law, failed leadership and it is all connected.
What kind of leadeship condones illegal behavior? Remember Tom Delay? Remember the rules change push to allow him to keep his leadership position while under indictment? Do you want the kind of leadership in Washington that covers up the likes of Foley and condones behavior like Delay?
Certainly Accountability is non-partisan issue. Investigate people and punish them too if they did something wrong. BUT - it has been a while since the Dems have had ther majority and subsquent power in Congress so the people in charge need to be held to account.
The act of voting is an exercise in accountability. How can you vote for someone who enables this behavior?
So my conversation partner makes excuses and leaves to look for guidance from the mothership. We end up agreeing that the Republican’s have demonstrated a lack of leadership. The Studds and Crane conversation disappear. They still don’t like the Democrats but they are pissed at the Republicans lack of leadership.
Again - leave nothing unchallenged. Leadership and accountability are non-partisan issues. Don’t cede them to the Republicans.
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I can’t find the reference for this right now, but iirc, the 1983 investigation was started over a news account about sexual abuse with pages that turned out to be wrong. Tip O’Neill (Speaker) and Bob Michael (Maj Leader) got together and ordered an ethics investigation. The investigation showed that the news account was wrong, but also found Crane and Studds. Crane’s affair occurred in 1980, when he was 46 and the page was female. Crane was also married with children. Studds’ affair happened in 1973 when he was 36. The page was male, testified that the sex was consensual, and Studds was openly gay.
The important differences between Studds and Foley are that Studds’ affair happened 10 years before the investigation, the investigation was bi-partisan, the age difference wasn’t as great, and Studds wasn’t a hypocrite. I don’t think Studds’ behavior was right, but it occured 33 years ago, in a time with different standards.
In any case, I don’t think a lot of people are buying the “Democrats did it too” defense. The Republicans’ claim to be better than the Democrats, not just as bad.
Nicely done. It’s funny the line of reasoning you mention:
* It is a Democratic Conspiracy
* Democrats do it too so Dems are hypocrites
* The liberal media is to blame.
It’s really amazed me since I started paying attention how often these arguments are used by right wingers. It feels like such a freaking waste of time to have to shoot these down, when the arguments we need to be having for the country’s sake are so beyond these fake talking points. I guess we had to take out Hitler’s “Atlantic Wall” at Normandy before we could fight in the Norman hedgerows.
It feels a little bit of a let down to not “convert” the person you were talking to, but you’re right– better a tie than to concede. I wonder if there’s a ripple effect that goes beyond this conversation. Have you halted travel down the Limbaugh-greased slope? Have you created a temporary backdoor that will allow progressive points of view to filter through their Dittohead Antivirus software?
Thanks for the insight. just a quick reply, I believe based on what I read you accurately descrbe the Studds/Crane situation. I can’t speak to the investigation but I did read that the page with Studds was 17 at the time and was consenual.
However - When discussing the case with people of this belief the facts do not matter. I say again the facts do not matter because the right will conveniently ignore facts that do not apply to their line of argument.
The pages of the 1980 investigation were 17. The pages in question with Foley were 16. It is an easy leap to say they are the same age. There wasn’t an internet back then either, which is really at the heart of what is illegal with Foley (as far as well know now). But you can discuss the aspects in such a way that it appears Crane and Studds were doing the same thing as Foley.
You don’t have to mention Studds was the first openly gay person elected to Congress. You don’t have to mention the affair with Studds was concentual. You don’t have to mention the age of content in DC (now it is 16). All you have to mention is Democratic Congressman and a teenage page - Republican Congressmen and teenage page - It must be the same thing.
My challenge was to shift the discussion from a perceived “Democrat whining about corrupt politicans when Democrats do it too” to a “We should hold all politicans accountable for their actions”.
I mean if you listen to how everything is Clinton’s fault - There are no facts that support this yet it is repeated over and over again as “truth”
I would tell you that the argument I run into with about Foley from the right wing is the all politicans are crooks argument so Democrats can’t really complain. I listen and then ask if it acceptable for any politican to be a crook and we go from there.
Imagine a world where people actually talked and debated ideas. Then ask yourself why not now?.
I can’t tell you if I’ve halted the slide down into the Right wing spew machine. Nor can I say that my discussions with this particular person has produced some eureka moment and changed their political beliefs.
Nope -
I can tell you that we have had conversations on what is seen on TV and they are miffed at what is shown on what used to be family hour - Deadbodies in advertisments for Prime time shows, all the viagra commercials and junk like that. This person simply wants to watch TV with their young child.
I can tell you that this same person said said that our market based economy is all about putting profits before people which isn’t right.
This person is disgusted with the entire Government big brother concept.
There have been some other gems as well.
We discuss these things and usually come to a high level common belief.
Most of this is about moving someone from a denial phase to an acceptance phase. Denial in that their particular votes/beliefs/support caused the same issues you rail against. That doesn’t happen over night. The conversatons are simply an investment in a better future.