Comments on: Talking to Conservatives Round 3

By: bythepeople

bythepeople — Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:57:10 +0000

Nice Reality-Based (TM) analysis, op99!

By: Exile on Ericsson St.

Exile on Ericsson St. — Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:53:02 +0000

Hey, this reminds me — are any of you guys on the Rockridge Institute mailing list? It’s an institute devoted to studying how we can argue with the other side (and with those in the middle). I like what they have to say a lot — it’s very much along the same lines as the kinds of things said in this post (the strategies they like for arguing are the same ones you used to argue with your conservative friend). I’ll give you an abridged version of their most recent mailing:
1. The Issue Trap

We hear it said all the time: Progressives won’t unite behind any set of ideas. We all have different ideas and care about different issues. The truth is that progressives do agree at the level of values and that there is a real basis for progressive unity. Progressive values cut across issues. So do principles and forms of argument. Conservatives argue conservatism, no matter what the issue. Progressives should argue progressivism. We need to get out of issue silos that isolate arguments and keep us from the values and principles that define an overall progressive vision.

2. The Poll Trap

Many progressives slavishly follow polls. The job of leaders is to lead, not follow. Besides, contrary to popular belief, polls in themselves do not present accurate empirical evidence. Polls are only as accurate as the framing of their questions, which is often inadequate. Real leaders don’t use polls to find out what positions to take; they lead people to new positions.

3. The Laundry List Trap

Progressives tend to believe that people vote on the basis of lists of programs and policies. In fact, people vote based on values, connection, authenticity, trust, and identity.

Here’s the other traps. A lot of what they say here very much reflects the ideas in this post.

4. The Rationalism Trap
5. The No-Framing-Necessary Trap
6. The Policies-Are-Values Trap
7. The Centrist Trap
8. The “Misunderestimating” Trap
9. The Reactive Trap
11. The Policyspeak Trap
12. The Blame Game Trap

By: op99

op99 — Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:59:06 +0000

With my most virulent Republican friend, we have managed to find 2 things we agree on: 2nd amendment rights, and decriminalizing marijuana. One time, while arguing about Bernie Goldberg’s “Bias”, we decided to separately score a Dan Rather evening newscast according to a pre-agreed scoring system. We agreed on the direction of bias in most stories, but not the degree. We agreed that some stories slanted Republican and some Democrat. Both of our final tallies were close to neutral for the broadcast taken as a whole. Although he kept bleating about the “liberal media” after that experiment, you could tell his heart just wasn’t in it anymore.

By: nequals1

nequals1 — Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:37:55 +0000

A lot of Republicans love to pull out those quotes from Democrats saying they thought Iraq had WMD. Of course, whether or not someone thought Iraq had WMD is not the point. It was what to do about it. Was immediate military action necessary (because if we waited Saddam might nuke us)? Or should we have let the weapons inspectors continue to do their job?

Also, whenever someone brings up those quotes, I like to show them some too. Like when Condi Rice said in July 2001: “But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let’s remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.” Or Powell, in May 2001: “The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn’t have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained.” Link here.